Abstract:
The Freedom from Religion Foundation objects to UW-Whitewater calling its gathering for Fort Hood victim Amy Krueger a prayer vigil....
Originally posted byWow, how rude.
"student complainant and her freethinking friends".
I don't know if this jumped out at anyone else, but I'm interested in why the organization thinks that anyone who IS religious is NOT freethinking? The implication there kind of screams brainwashed idiots to me. How annoying.
I'm going to assume that no one FORCED ("coerced") anyone else to pray. Its people like that that really annoy me. You don't want to pray? DON'T PRAY. If you were confused about whether you had to be religious or not to attend, ASK. Its so simple. Intead of throwing a hissy fit and potentially ruining the caring event that people put together, ASK. God forbid we mention the word "prayer". Something as superficial as getting all worked up over calling it "a prayer vigil" instead of "memorial service" is just ridiculous. And threatening the university because of it, without finding out if it WAS actually university sponsored, is so low.
(Just an observation: I hope they realize, with all this complaining they do, regulations, rules and ideas, and hatred for other ideas, Atheism is becoming a pretty strong *and increasingly frustrating* RELIGION.)
Originally posted byFFRF Supporter
Hmmm, what does your religion 'allow' you to believe freethinker?
You should pray for me, because as a nonbeliever, you probably believe I will be spending 'afterlife' in eternal hellfire provided you align your belief with one of the three major monotheisms.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand why nonbelievers like myself take issue with labeling a nonreligious public obersvance as a 'prayer vigil.'
More suspect I think, is why you would have a problem with calling it anything but.
This criticism will continue so I suggest you get used to it...or, I would be more than happy to have a civilized debate on the role of religion in the public sphere.
It is for not complaining, and in fact being criticized for doing so, that religion has maintained its dangerous influence on the social discourse of our species.
I am confident that as the discussion progresses, as it has in recent years, you will see clearly why we take issue here.
Originally posted byFFRF Supporter Also
'Wow, how rude' and 'Free Thinker,'
I am a major supporter of FFRF and I am happy that they criticized UW Whitewater for holding a 'prayer vigil.' If you feel the need to pray or talk to yourself, then do so. There is no reason why the event needed to be affiliated with any sort of religion. Besides, every time I have seen religion in action on campus I am usually witnessing individuals choosing to make public statements about homosexuals going to hell and choosing to spread false information about topics such as abortion. Overall, I'd prefer to keep the crackpot ideas, which sand strewn people from Bronze Age decided to viciously impose upon humanity, out of my university – unless of course you want to study comparative religion or religious history.
Religion is such a divisive force which must inevitably segregate communities of people and divide people into their own communities of moral concern. At the base of all our popular monotheistic beliefs is the idea that the people who do not submit to particular set of dogmatic beliefs will suffer for eternity in hell fire. What a sick thought. The next time you're in church, take a look around. Ask yourself if holding hands, ritualistically summoning a spirit(s), and ceremonially participating in sacrificial cannibalism is a good idea. Even the thought of God needing to kill itself through Jesus in order to impress himself is barking mad. God needed to sacrifice itself in order to save the people he created? Don't you know that vicarious redemption, or scapegoating, is disgustingly immoral? Religious believers and institutions belong at the margins of our society, not in our halls of power or in our universities. You think that FFRF is rude for criticizing the 'prayer vigil?' I think your parents were rude for corrupting your innocent mind with falsehoods and indoctrinating you into massively popular cult.
Oh, and how exactly is a person who does not challenge their own ideas about belief in dogmatic and rather insane beliefs call themselves a 'free thinker?' Sounds more like non-thinking to me. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." If you believe that your religious belief is true, you may as well believe that every religious claim is true. If only the university would screen its applicants with a first grade logic exam...
Originally posted byFFRF Supporter Also
'Wow, how rude' and 'Free Thinker,'
I am a major supporter of FFRF and I am happy that they criticized UW Whitewater for holding a 'prayer vigil.' If you feel the need to pray or talk to yourself, then do so. There is no reason why the event needed to be affiliated with any sort of religion. Besides, every time I have seen religion in action on campus I am usually witnessing individuals choosing to make public statements about homosexuals going to hell and choosing to spread false information about topics such as abortion. Overall, I'd prefer to keep the crackpot ideas, which sand strewn people from Bronze Age decided to viciously impose upon humanity, out of my university – unless of course you want to study comparative religion or religious history.
Religion is such a divisive force which must inevitably segregate communities of people and divide people into their own communities of moral concern. At the base of all our popular monotheistic beliefs is the idea that the people who do not submit to particular set of dogmatic beliefs will suffer for eternity in hell fire. What a sick thought. The next time you're in church, take a look around. Ask yourself if holding hands, ritualistically summoning a spirit(s), and ceremonially participating in sacrificial cannibalism is a good idea. Even the thought of God needing to kill itself through Jesus in order to impress himself is barking mad. God needed to sacrifice itself in order to save the people he created? Don't you know that vicarious redemption, or scapegoating, is disgustingly immoral? Religious believers and institutions belong at the margins of our society, not in our halls of power or in our universities. You think that FFRF is rude for criticizing the 'prayer vigil?' I think your parents were rude for corrupting your innocent mind with falsehoods and indoctrinating you into massively popular cult.
Oh, and how exactly is a person who does not challenge their own ideas about belief in dogmatic and rather insane beliefs call themselves a 'free thinker?' Sounds more like non-thinking to me. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." If you believe that your religious belief is true, you may as well believe that every religious claim is true. If only the university would screen its applicants with a first grade logic exam...
Originally posted byLet's stay FOCUSED
This debate has nothing to do with poor Amy, and my respects go to her family and friends. ...and I am grateful that Amy served in our nation's armed forces.
That aside, it would be much appreciated if these events would not be referred to as prayer vigils in the future.
To Free Stinkers:
The University's response to the FFRF-
The Chancellor's office responded with a faxed letter that said the event is being organized by the Campus Ministry Center, which the Foundation discovered is run by non-students and members of the clergy.
In a follow-up letter, Kratz wrote, "Given that CMC is a private organization that offers services to students but is not a university sponsored group or student-run organization, it is troubling that UWW would use its announcement services to advertise this religious event. As per the policies for communications, which you cite in your response, only any 'administrative unit, academic departments or recognized student organization associated with UW-Whitewater may post an announcement.' "
Thus the university violates its own policy.
Originally posted byKathy
It always amazes me that the freedom from religion folks spend so much energy making sure no one ever prays. If there's no one up there, what do you care?
Get this straight. You have taken the spotlight off a fallen soldier for your own petty issues. SHAME ON YOU! Yep. That was yelling. Of course, it was a prayer vigil because it was sponsored by a Christian organization.
When you want to honor someone who died, you all can hold a memorial. Nuff said.
Originally posted by6kbby
Wow, people must have too much time on their hands. This is a total non-issue. Who cares if it's called a prayer vigil? If you were offended by this you are a moron. It's really is that simple. I'm not affiliated with any religion, nor do I want my university to develop into one with major Christian overtones. However, I was in no way upset by the email.
The name of the gathering shouldn't be important anyways. Sure maybe the university shouldn't have used "prayer vigil" because of all the "free-thinkers" that might get offended. I think that this minor issue can be glossed over considering the tragic death of a student. It's pretty safe to assume that UWW will not becoming a private Christian university any time soon.
Oh, it's funny how the term "free-thinker" gets thrown around like it actually signifies intelligence. It's this kind of elitist attitude that makes the members of organizations like the FFRF as insufferable as extreme religious ones.
Originally posted by6kbby
Wow, people must have too much time on their hands. This is a total non-issue. Who cares if it's called a prayer vigil? If you were offended by this you are a moron. It's really is that simple. I'm not affiliated with any religion, nor do I want my university to develop into one with major Christian overtones. However, I was in no way upset by the email.
The name of the gathering shouldn't be important anyways. Sure maybe the university shouldn't have used "prayer vigil" because of all the "free-thinkers" that might get offended. I think that this minor issue can be glossed over considering the tragic death of a student. It's pretty safe to assume that UWW will not becoming a private Christian university any time soon.
Oh, it's funny how the term "free-thinker" gets thrown around like it actually signifies intelligence. It's this kind of elitist attitude that makes the members of organizations like the FFRF as insufferable as extreme religious ones.
Wow, how rude.
posted 11/18/09 @ 3:06 AM CST
I don't know if this jumped out at anyone else, but I'm interested in why the organization thinks that anyone who IS religious is NOT freethinking? The implication there kind of screams brainwashed idiots to me. How annoying.
I'm going to assume that no one FORCED ("coerced") anyone else to pray. Its people like that that really annoy me. You don't want to pray? DON'T PRAY. If you were confused about whether you had to be religious or not to attend, ASK. Its so simple. Intead of throwing a hissy fit and potentially ruining the caring event that people put together, ASK. God forbid we mention the word "prayer". Something as superficial as getting all worked up over calling it "a prayer vigil" instead of "memorial service" is just ridiculous. And threatening the university because of it, without finding out if it WAS actually university sponsored, is so low.
(Just an observation: I hope they realize, with all this complaining they do, regulations, rules and ideas, and hatred for other ideas, Atheism is becoming a pretty strong *and increasingly frustrating* RELIGION.)